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Strong knew that Gray had met with other actors.
He desperately wanted to work with the man whod made seven pictures, four of them with Joaquin Phoenix.
There was also Grays screenplay which Strong likens to a musical score in terms of its level of precision.
From left, director James Gray and Jeremy Strong on the ‘Armageddon Time’ set.Anne Joyce/Focus Features/Everett Collection
But Strong says he experienced a profound doubt as to whether he was capable of what the role required.
Gray says he picked Strong because he could see the actors commitment to digging deep to play Irving.
But I couldnt help him.
From left, Jaylin Webb and Banks Repeta.Focus Features/Everett Collection
He had to find Irving himself, he says.
That was not helpful, says Strong.
Eventually Gray acquiesced without a fight.
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Rare because I fight a lot, Gray admits.
He and Strong didnt grapple or argue because Jeremy is very communicative with what hes going through.
When the actors communicative you then say, to yourself anyway, Id like to help.
And how directly can I get to the bottom of whats troubling this person.
Joaquin is obviously fantastic as well, but hes different, says Gray.
JAMES GRAY: Well, after I Zoomed with him.
JEREMY STRONG: James doesnt watch anything from the last, like, three or four decades…
DEADLINE: You dont watch TV?
GRAY: Thats not true!
I just dont watch a ton of television.
Not out of snob-bery.
I want to be clear about that because on TV, theres some great stuff.
Ive never done it.
Its overwhelming to me to watch a billion hours of television, you know?
I feel that a movie is one hour and 48 minutes.
I think hes a director that as an actor you would swim across the ocean to work with.
DEADLINE: How did that lack of familiarity express itself?
STRONG: It didnt express itself in any sort of explicit way.
It was more a sense that one gets.
And I wrote to him, saying I felt I had this character in me.
DEADLINE: So, James, what were you seeing from your end?
GRAY: My wife said he was great, and my wife has fantastic taste.
When she says to me, This actors great, its 99.9 percent certain that the persons excellent.
and thats why I thought, Well, I should do this Zoom.
What I saw was that he liked me a lot, so immediately, I thought he was intelligent.
[Laughs] Joking aside, I thought he was great.
I mean, he was so smart.
He had such a fantastic ability to understand human beings, you know?
And he quoted something.
You always want to surround yourself with people who are smarter and more interesting than you.
He had passion for the part, and he understood it.
So that night, I went and watched the first three episodes ofSuccession, if memory serves me correctly.
I then wound up watching a huge lot more, although Im now behind again.
And then I saw Aaron Sorkins movie [The Trial of the Chicago 7].
[Laughs] Im glad I took that train.
DEADLINE: So James, whats going through your head as you are watching him inSuccession?
Are you thinking, OK, is this the right thespian to portray a character based on my father?
I think thats a very dangerous approach.
What I look for is their total commitment to whatever theyre doing in the work.
But its about moving past that, you know?
The actor shouldnt be doing exactly what I predicted they should do two years before.
So what I look for is the dedication of the actor to the work.
And the thing is only as good as the discoveries you make in the process.
So that requires both being intrepid about it but also being open.
One of the first things he said to me was, Whatever you do, dont nail it.
STRONG:Yeah, painting on the glass.
And he says what hes looking for is the unexpectedness of the naked truth.
And James is going after the same statement.
GRAY: Right after the Zoom.
Ive never encountered that.
Maybe that case can exist.
Thats everything in acting, you know?
I understand that impulse.
STRONG: To be willing to be disliked and willing to make a fool of oneself.
You know whats not human?
You see an ad for, like, Victorias Secret.
Its very nice, but its not a work of art, really.
It doesnt engage me with what it means to be a human being.
I dont feel it to be a comment on sincerity, it doesnt mean anything to me.
And then to do that, it means a willingness to not want to be loved.
So thats what I see.
Thats what I like.
Or just simply to be liked or to belong.
And you have to do that through character.
Thats where craft comes in.
You have to take your cool kid suit off.
STRONG:By the way, this is a tricky, tricky thing here guys.
Im sorry to interrupt.
The tricky thing here is of course, what hes talking about.
Its really pretty much anathema to a lot of things.
Its anathema to capitalism.
Its anathema to making people feel comfortable buying new products.
Its anathema to the way the world is built right now.
Thats the struggle, and thats why theres risk.
Now you could bury it in something that has great popular appeal.
It doesnt mean everything thats popular is bad.
Thats not what I mean.
And thats a…
GRAY:Doesnt want what?
Thats a very important distinction.
And we have a job to confront things with honesty.
There are things that are really unpleasant that we have to confront.
I dont think it serves us well to avoid them at all or to give easy answers.
GRAY: Jeremy will confirm this.
Its not my job to tell the actor, This is what you have to do.
My job is to help them live and be beautiful.
So I resist saying, Heres what I want.
Thats not what Im after.
Because Ive already made the decision to cast that person.
Jeremy would probably be able to answer this better than I would.
I became like a detective, obsessed with finding clues.
And so they had him answer all of those questions and they videoed him doing that.
And that gave me a sort of nodule of truth that became the basis of everything else.
What was your hesitancy there?
GRAY: The answer always must come from the actor.
The director is not giving answers.
The answer is within the actor.
The actor is conveying.
The actors job is not to act.
Its one of the great wrong terms ever.
The wall must come down between the actor and the character.
So I dont give answers to the actor.
The actor must find the answers.
Its my job to ask the questions if I think they need help to get to that answer themselves.
If Im giving them the answer, that means its a real problem.
I mean, I guess I gave the answers to the kids.
But theyre 12, you know?
Its a very different language.
STRONG: I agree with James.
And only once that instrument has been built and learned can you answer your own questions.
DEADLINE: James, you went out for dinner, what were the discussions like, did you fight?
Im trying to get to the heart of this collaboration.
GRAY:I dont think we fought at all.
Not a single fight actually, which is a weird thing.
I usually fight a lot.
DEADLINE: Ive heard this.
GRAY:With Joaquin [Phoenix] I fight a lot, but its a different sort of thing.
Because lot of times, Jeremy is very communicative with what hes going through.
When the actors communicative you then say, to yourself anyway, Id like to help.
And how directly can I get to the bottom of whats troubling this person.
Joaquin is obviously fantastic as well, but hes different.
You know, his process is different, so you dont hear whats troubling him.
So then I kind of get frustrated.
Thats where the fight comes.
Although the last two pictures I made with him, I didnt fight with him either.
I mean, mostly what it is, is I like to let them do what they do.
I almost never gave Jeremy direction before take one.
I mean, I dont think I ever did really, because you want to see what they bring.
It reads, the camera reads everything.
DEADLINE: What do you think, both of you, the film says about America today?
I know its set in the 1980s, but it does speak to so much thats going on now.
But what do I think it says about today?
You know, nothing comes from nothing.
To try is folly, but that doesnt mean you dont try.
And its our job to point out how difficult it will be to unpack those things.
Its basically as simple as that.
To contribute just a little bit to this mountain of endeavor that we call progress.
So there are two alternatives, right?
The first is to make art, which expresses this in all of its complexity.
There isnt really a third path, I dont think, at least not that Ive discovered.
And are you doing a corporations bidding without knowing it, or arent you?
We all have our ideological box.
You cant get out of it.
But what you could do is say, This is my box; this is where I am.
What can I do to do better?
STRONG: Thats so beautifully said.
Hes a kid, but were all indicted by that moment.
This is a Jewish family who has known persecution.
And in this father has a very primal will to survive, to protect his children.
Theres a kind of Darwinistic survival mechanism going on.
And, at the same time, that has catastrophic costs for Johnny.
His dream is completely expendable to the father but also to society.
GRAY: Theres one last thing I would add.
Is this a white guilt movie?
And, really, whats important to emphasize, its not about white guilt.
It works out really well for him.
Theres something else going on when that happens.
[Society is] throwing him under the bus, not the movie.
But you know what James Baldwin said?
This, to me, is the prevailing sadness of the story.
DEADLINE: That the dream mattered and it still matters.
DEADLINE: No, I understand that.
And life just is not like that.
GRAY: Well, thats the idea.
That was why I got to this thing about white guilt.
Theres no lesson learned, so they dont solve the problem at the end and become better people.
No, this is not what our function is.
And that doesnt mean the movie is endorsing it.
That is our job.
