Only nine directors have ever won the Palme dOr twice.
Francis Ford Coppola did it in the 70s withThe ConversationandApocalypse Now.
Ruben Ostlund joined the club last year after followingThe SquarewithTriangle of Sadness.
Ken Loach on the set ofThe Old Oak.Sixteen Films
After that cameSorry, We Missed You, a no-less withering look at the punitive gig economy.
Were you prepared to hang up your spurs after the last movie?
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LOACH:Well, I think there was an essential story to tell.
And it was crystallized in the old coal fields of County Durham.
I mean, the other old industries have gone too, like ship-building and steel.
The pits closed, as we know, as a straight political decision.
Not to do with environmental issues but to do with destroying the miners union and their strength and solidarity.
The consequences of that have been accumulating here over 40 years, and the communities are devastated.
Theyve been left to rot, abandoned.
So you have two communities, both devastated, one with the additional trauma of experiencing a war.
How do they live together?
And in the course of exploring that, you see all the different elements in the local community.
Deprivation leads to anger, leads to alienation, and leads to people wanting someone to blame.
And there is an element that will find scapegoats.
How on earth are they going to find a way of living together?
Will they find each others weaknesses, or will they find each others strengths?
It just seemed a story we had to tell.
LAVERTY:Thats a very good question.
We didnt set out to make three films.
But what was very, very clear was that they were intimately connected.
I mean, look at the world ofSorry We Missed You.
So there was a seismic shift there.
But not only that, it was in their minds.
We talked about this inSorry We Missed You.
Mind-forgd manacles [as poet William Blake wrote].
People believed they were entrepreneurs of the road, and they totally swallowed the free enterprise culture.
They were even told, You dont get hired you come on board.
The language had changed.
Now, thats a remarkable trip, from 1984 to the world ofSorry We Missed You.
We talked about austerity inI, Daniel Blake.
Who did they target?
They targeted just like they do now with immigrants people on welfare.
They set out to make their lives unbearable.
Thats not just rhetoric.
The sanctions regime was absolutely remarkable: what you saw was a bureaucratic state indulge in massive cruelty.
But how did we get to that stage?
So, in a way, rooted inThe Old Oakis the notion of the past.
Where have we come from?
So the three of them really, really tied up together.
And those two films were brutal and we had to be true to that premise.
How would you describeThe Old Oak?
KEN LOACH: The story that Paul wrote is about a pub named The Old Oak.
He began as a young miner in the [1984-85] miners strike, fought as hard as anyone.
All the other public spaces have gone around the village, so theres only the pub left.
And its falling apart.
The customers are dwindling and hes struggling to keep it going.
Those struggles have taken their toll, and hes a man with personal difficulties.
He doesnt really see a future for himself.
He cant help but be captivated by her enthusiasm.
Its an entirely platonic friendship.
But shes also got her struggles.
Especially when it came to their own houses.
Because of the crises in these communities, property prices dropped like crazy.
So, the past was implicit.
You could see everything closing all around you.
When we were there, houses were being sold for as little as 8,000 ($10,000).
They were not consulted.
In other words, things were being done to them instead of them having agency in their own lives.
And that was palpable.
Its a really massive issue for so many people, still.
And who do they blame?
Who did they blame after austerity?
They blamed people on welfare.
Its a hymn weve heard before.
How do you build a project like this?
LOACH: Its the writer who faces the blank sheet of paper there.
As weve just done, we talk about the overall situation.
Paul went around the villages, and then we went around them together for a bit.
We talked about the overall situation, but Paul wrote the characters and the story.
We talk at every level, but its Pauls pen that he licks the end of.
LAVERTY: Its a very organic process.
Even if its absent in a film, thats a really, really important question.
And you have to be truthful to the premise to each film.
But for this one, we felt there was really unfinished business [in the North East].
When we start off, we dont know what were going to find.
You cant copy a script from the street.
But the more you talk and the more you think, you start to make connections.
What was amazing was talking to the older people.
And there really was a sense of community, identity and pride.
Even the way they dressed, how they looked after their hair.
I dont want to stereotype them, but a lot of people were really struggling.
There were big stories of addiction.
Many stories of hopelessness.
So, we saw both extremes.
But how do you give that life?
We thought, what if we put The Old Oak right at the center of this community?
LOACH: One thing that was very much in our minds was that these circumstances were consciously created.
This was not some accident; this was not an act of god.
It was a conscious political decision by the Thatcher government to destroy these communities.
And that was endorsed by Blairs New Labour governments.
They were left to rot.
Tony Blair was an MP for Sedgefield in County Durham.
Peter Mandelson was the MP for Hartlepool, just at the edge of the mining area.
And they consciously allowed it.
They consciously allowed it.
Thats the wickedness at the heart of the political decision.
And [the government], and their friends in the media, create the scapegoats.
Its part of the same politics.
And I think as a society, as a political discourse, we never nailed that.
Because theyre becoming increasingly rare.
LOACH: Well, it depends on where you listen.
My skills dont extend to social media, so I miss a lot.
But I mean, there are events on social media where people are saying exactly this.
I mean, look at the whole movement to elect Jeremy Corbyn.
Theres a huge wealth of information that is totally bypassed by the mainstream media.
You dont hear a whisper of it.
So yes, there are people there.
And yes they have a voice.
But the manipulation of consciousness is what were talking about.
Paul, do you have anything to add to that?
LAVERTY: Everywhere you go, there are activists on the street trying to join up the dots.
Theres more hunger, theres a bigger crisis in housing, and theres more racism.
All you have to do is speak to people who will tell you their stories.
But, again, it goes back to what Ken was saying previously.
Unless this is part of a joined-up, systematic plan, nothing will change.
Because you have to change how power operates.
So that is the great challenge: how will all those brilliant activists come together?
And unless that happens, were going to be in the same shit 10 years from now.
Theres no doubt about it.
LOACH: Many of these activists are in the film.
Claire Rogerson plays a big part, and a wonderful woman called Heather Ward is in the film too.
She organized the food kitchen during the miners strike.
The actor who plays T.J. himself, Dave Turner, was a trade union official.
And there are many more, in the village and in the film.
People who actually understand the struggle, but you never hear their voices.
How did you first meet?
I suppose you could say I was an eyewitness to the war in Central America.
I have to thank Margaret Thatcher for that, really.
Anyway, we met, and he said, Well, this is a very long shot.
I dont speak Spanish.
Theres a war on in Central America.
Theres no film industry there.
He says, But try and write a few scenes.
And that was my very, very, very lucky moment.
So, its just been a long conversation since then.
What keeps you going as a unit?
LOACH:Mainly an interest in football, really.
We exchange scores of an evening.
Its a view of history, its a shared sense of humor, and a friendship, really.
So Ive got him to blame for the brutal treatment of pensioners.
[Laughs] We keep pottering along and giving each other a giggle now and then.
LAVERTY: Hell be glad to see the back of me, Ill tell you that.
When did you first go toCannes?
What was your first experience of the festival?
LOACH: It was in 1970, I think.
That was in Critics Week, and weve been going for-ever since.
It was very exciting; its always been very exciting.
Cannes is full of contradictions.
But at its heart, there are people who care about film.
Theres all this stupidity of the yachts in the harbor and the parties on the beach.
All that goes on.
Whats your most striking memory of Cannes?
Winning the main event for that was fantastic.
Went and had a cup of tea with the French distributor afterward.
He was a lovely man.
And then [we won] again withI, Daniel Blake.
I made a fruitless attempt to raise money and then had to borrow some to get back.
LAVERTY: I remember you running out of money, Ken [laughs].
But, going back to what Ken said earlier, weve been lucky to be here.
I mean, I know Kens been here many more times than me, and so has Rebecca.
But weve been very lucky to be here 11 times.
What is absolutely remarkable is that every time you go, you meet someone amazing.
And theyre all dreamers.
Theyre all trying to do something.
Do you feel pressure for a third Palme dOr?
We dont think like that.
You cant think like that.
And seeing the film on a big screen like [the Grand Theatre Lumiere] is immensely gratifying.
LAVERTY:Thats true.
When youre in the middle of it, it always feels very, very fragile.
Will the script work?
Will the casting work?
Will we raise the finance for it?
I learned this from Ken right at the very beginning: you never know whats going to happen.
You just dont know.
All you’ve got the option to do is enjoy the journey.
Ken, do you see yourself retiring any time soon?
LOACH: Yeah, its a certainty until the coffee every morning.
And then the revival kicks in [laughs].
I think itll be a bit difficult to get around the course again for a future film.
But maybe other kinds of filmmaking are still possible.
You just live day by day.
But the time goes very quickly, and the more you do, the faster the bloody world turns.
So, seize the day comrade!
